Educationbridges#6 - Wiki Textbooks Chat Transcript
February 22, 2006
February 22, 2006
19:55:06 dave-on-air: hi mercedes
19:55:19 Mercedes: Hi everybody
19:55:24 erin: hi mercedes!
19:58:19 dave-on-air: well...
19:58:22 dave-on-air: here we are again
19:58:50 dave-on-air: everyone ready?
19:58:54 dave-on-air: 3 minutes to air time
19:59:54 JohnMayer: So is it WIKI or TEXTBOOKS?
20:00:00 dave-on-air: mmm...
20:00:04 dave-on-air: wikitextbooks
20:00:07 dave-on-air: so kinda both
20:00:24 dave-on-air: or maybe westractorals
20:00:31 JohnMayer: ...but a WIKI that takes solid form every so often to become a TEXTBOOK.
20:00:31 Harold_Jarche: we don't have any opinions ;-)
20:00:36 Mercedes: sounds not that good
20:00:41 dave-on-air: (word i just made up to dodge the naming issue)
20:00:52 Mercedes: good
20:00:52 dave-on-air: at least in part
20:01:16 dave-on-air: i don't think that the wiki needs to be uniform
20:01:21 dave-on-air: some parts can be solid
20:01:24 dave-on-air: and others changeable
20:02:11 JohnMayer: Do textbooks change during the semester?
20:02:13 DougSymington: much better re audio right now
20:02:55 dave-on-air: ah. john
20:03:01 dave-on-air: that's a debate that we've had many times here
20:03:11 JohnMayer: Yeah- just warming up.
20:03:24 dave-on-air: perfect
20:03:30 dave-on-air: you're in good company
20:05:22 dave-on-air: hi joyce!
20:05:26 john_Mullaney: Hello Joyce
20:05:35 john_Mullaney: Great article in the Philadelphia Inquirer
20:05:41 joycevalenza: shucks! thanks
20:06:29 dave-on-air: yes. joyce is very cool.
20:06:34 dave-on-air: anyone got that link for us?
20:07:03 dave-on-air: hi larry
20:07:09 lsanger: Hi all, hi Dave
20:07:21 lsanger: Very curious where you're going with this.
20:07:33 dave-on-air: so are we... :)
20:07:49 JohnMayer: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/13680242.htm?source=rss&chan...
20:07:56 dave-on-air: thanks john
20:09:23 John_Mullaney: Who funds NORTA?
20:12:30 JohnMayer: Practical is good.
20:12:50 dave-on-air: yes we like practical
20:13:34 John_Mullaney: the districts with the digital divide is the group that should have priority
20:13:57 JohnMayer: Bridge over digital divide=wiki-->www.lulu.com?
20:14:13 lsanger: to find the money to print them?
20:14:20 lsanger: Sorry...
20:14:47 lsanger: If free printable PDFs were available, do you think school districts would find money to print?
20:14:48 John_Mullaney: but the reason why philanthropy is in the picture is to provide the resources that are needed to those who are on the frindges
20:15:03 erin: i'm curious as to why this conversation about wikis always floats back to printing.
20:15:08 JohnMayer: Chicken and egg
20:15:14 joycevalenza: but it may be the teacher contributors are likely to come from other areas
20:15:26 Mercedes: As an instructinal designer I find that our vision has to be able to reach as many users of the "book" as possible.
20:15:40 erin: if all these wikis are going to do is imitate textbooks, then what's the point?
20:15:53 John_Mullaney: I suspect we are talking about the ways teachers are trained to use the technology which makes books secondary
20:16:05 lsanger: Wiki is a tool for creating the free, reliable text--not the destination. That's my view...
20:16:13 MattC: Big issue, how would it improve upon traditional texts? What do teachers / students want?
20:16:23 Mercedes: Joyce you are so right. We can use contributions from the best teachers all over the world, and the final product can reach students in all areas.
20:16:28 JohnMayer: Wrap wiki in export software to PDF, RTF, etc. These can be printed.
20:16:31 joycevalenza: i agree, erin.
20:16:36 erin: if a wiki is not the destination, then what is?
20:16:45 joycevalenza: why would we need to decide who gets it first
20:16:55 John_Mullaney: A pilot site could bring teachers from both sides of the digital divide together to figure out ways to make the wikis work best in their classrooms
20:17:01 lsanger: The paper textbook in the hands of a kid without a computer.
20:17:05 JohnMayer: Think of the teacher's syllabus as a sort of playlist that points to wiki content.
20:17:18 joycevalenza: i think we need to start with some kind of prototype soon
20:17:23 John_Mullaney: We need to talk about what a pilot site could and should include
20:17:24 dave-on-air: agreed
20:17:30 dave-on-air: that's why we're here joyce
20:17:45 dave-on-air: i hope
20:18:03 dave-on-air: i am humbled
20:18:10 Mercedes: right
20:18:11 dave-on-air: there is now... a superdave
20:18:11 JohnMayer: How do you incent teachers to participate?
20:18:24 John_Mullaney: Are the districts willing to work with the ODE to rethink how the funds are allocated to technology vs. textbooks
20:18:44 joycevalenza: i think we need to organize. the lists?
20:18:48 Mercedes: You'd be surprised how many teachers would be wiling to participate in such a project
20:18:57 joycevalenza: present the ideas at confs?
20:18:58 John_Mullaney: I agree Mercedes
20:19:18 joycevalenza: few really know of the possibilities yet
20:19:21 John_Mullaney: I am surprised by the number of teachers I have spoken with in this Ohio area who teach without a text
20:19:24 JohnMayer: So all we need is the tool/wiki and they will jump in?
20:20:03 joycevalenza: we need a frame to begin. a core. then we create a teachers' ed and a student ed along side
20:20:26 John_Mullaney: can you do this virtuallly? or is it more effective in a place
20:20:45 John_Mullaney: how much face to face to you need to develop a foundation to start the wiki
20:20:48 joycevalenza: i am going to propose this tomorrow at a regional tech meeting
20:20:49 JohnMayer: A core/frame of content or a framework to accept content?
20:21:28 Mercedes: I feel we need to validate content and the "book" itself according to both content and e-learning standards.
20:21:54 John_Mullaney: is there an uber validation group? or can they be localized?
20:22:20 JohnMayer: Both
20:22:22 John_Mullaney: What is the best medum for them to communicate?
20:22:35 joycevalenza: perhaps the uber group happens in the traditional text part. then the open source spirit in the other two areas
20:22:36 John_Mullaney: what role could a place like SMART and ideacenter have in this
20:22:49 John_Mullaney: I would agree Joyce
20:23:04 lsanger: John Mullaney--starting a wiki doesn't necessarily require any face-to-face. Other elements might require face-to-face, though, like negotiations with a school district.
20:23:17 John_Mullaney: good point
20:23:22 JohnMayer: Soo content starts opensource and graduates to traditional text via editorial board approval?
20:23:47 joycevalenza: that's my concept, though I come at it as a suburban princess
20:23:58 John_Mullaney: Would a project look like several pilot sites across the country that blend the virtual wiki part along with some face to face?
20:24:01 joycevalenza: who already has and is disatisfied with texts
20:24:03 DougSymington: Joyce--I think you've nailed it re "open source spirit" which is key to develop and sustainability
20:24:11 JohnMayer: Sounds good. Who vets who gets to be on the editorial board that does the approval?
20:24:25 DougSymington: development
20:24:29 lsanger: I think "stable versions" of the text are in order--editions released from time to time that are reliable. The text can undergo continuous improvement because it's a wiki
20:24:32 John_Mullaney: Good question Dave
20:24:39 dave-on-air: oh.
20:24:41 dave-on-air: thanks
20:24:53 Harold_Jarche: Speaking of books, I like Dave Warlick's statement, "No generation in history has ever been so thoroughly prepared for the industrial age."
20:25:03 dave-on-air: lol
20:25:04 lsanger: I agree, answer Dave's question please
20:25:11 John_Mullaney: agreed Larry, but we would also want to have a "place" where teachers could be trained to use the wiki as a compliment to thier own teaching
20:25:15 joycevalenza: yes!
20:25:20 lsanger: I mean John Mayer's question...
20:25:21 Mercedes: definitely
20:25:39 lsanger: Right, of course
20:25:40 JohnMayer: Training should be online and asynchronous as well.
20:25:50 joycevalenza: i believe critical mass already exists. we need to just alert web 1.0 teachers to web 2.0
20:26:01 Harold_Jarche: yes, Joyce
20:26:07 John_Mullaney: the teachers will get it, it is often the principles, superintendents who are burdened with other issues that could slow this down
20:26:12 joycevalenza: how many wonderful teacher sites already exist
20:26:28 John_Mullaney: who knows where they are?
20:26:31 Harold_Jarche: great stuff on PBS
20:26:38 John_Mullaney: is there one site that aggregates these sites?
20:26:43 John_Mullaney: are they easily accessible?
20:26:59 John_Mullaney: do good teachers know how to access them and use them?
20:27:05 lsanger: A computer science text would get a lot of coders excited about this project...
20:27:26 lsanger: Excited coders = free programming services
20:27:27 MattC: What are we training the teachers to do? Add content, shape content, teaching students to add to the wiki?
20:27:29 erin: but are coders the people that need to be excited about this?
20:27:56 JohnMayer: Training teachers to use wikis and understand how they work. Yes?
20:28:08 erin: all the free programming in the world won't help if teachers don't get behind this.
20:28:14 John_Mullaney: teacher are worked with to understand how the technology can be used to enhance their students learning
20:28:56 MattC: How will it be used to enhance learning, aside from just a traditional text?
20:29:04 JohnMayer: Hmmmmm...money is not really a problem here. Certainly not the biggest problem if you have all these teachers willing to participate.
20:29:32 dave-on-air: good question matt... maybe we'll get there later...
20:29:57 John_Mullaney: That's why I think we need to have centers for teaching and learning
20:30:03 John_Mullaney: this is a process
20:30:13 John_Mullaney: a wiki book or whatever is merely a tool
20:30:17 lsanger: MattC--there are two concurrent proposals, as I hear it. One is to create free textbooks. That won't "enhance learning" except by having up-to-date textbooks. The other proposal is some sort of collaborative learning tool...
20:30:37 JohnMayer: ebooks enhance learning in the following ways...
20:30:47 JohnMayer: 1. they cannot get lost
20:30:54 JohnMayer: 2. they can be searched
20:31:00 JohnMayer: 3. they are cheaper to copy
20:31:03 JohnMayer: Others?
20:31:14 Mercedes: Can be updated regularly
20:31:25 Mercedes: Already include multimedia
20:31:26 lsanger: Yes, and a wiki-developed book would exist in an ebook format too.
20:31:32 JohnMayer: 4 or 5. can be turned into MP3 for the blind
20:31:35 Mercedes: exactly
20:31:47 MattC: In order to attract teachers administrators, we need to show them how wiki are better.
20:31:57 Mercedes: absolutely, we can provide different versions, including for the blind and deaf
20:32:09 Harold_Jarche: great ideas from these guys :)
20:32:22 dave-on-air: thanks....
20:32:23 John_Mullaney: good point matt
20:32:23 dave-on-air: oh wait
20:32:26 dave-on-air: you didn't mean me
20:32:28 SuperDaveUMO: 6. Can create a centralized place to change the data (ie a central server)
20:32:29 dave-on-air: :)
20:32:36 JohnMayer: This links ebooks to podcasting.
20:33:23 JohnMayer: 7. ebooks weigh less (easier to carry - less chiropractor bills)
20:33:28 joycevalenza: why unfortunately suburbs?
20:33:37 joycevalenza: it has to start somewhere!
20:33:53 Mercedes: disadvantages districts with no internet labs can get a cd-rom version, even.
20:34:08 Harold_Jarche: joyce, i think that Roy was referring to Nord Foundation's mission
20:34:09 DougSymington: great point Mercedes
20:34:21 JohnMayer: 8. font can be increased for low-visiion folks or for classroom projection
20:34:31 John_Mullaney: Why not have a place where teachers from the suburbs and from the inner city could work together to develop content as well as delivery methods in classrooms
20:34:43 Mercedes: a portal
20:34:46 DougSymington: this could be supplied as a "click here for CD" link from online version
20:34:53 JohnMayer: Place = Internet
20:35:01 dave-on-air: like the ubuntu mail out for the CD
20:35:11 DougSymington: xactly
20:35:44 Mercedes: student achievement can be measured from the "book" or the cd
20:35:44 lsanger: Question: what comes first: approach school districts to get some sort of pre-approval for a textbook project, or get approval after the textbook has been written? What's the easiest way forward as far as getting textbook approval is concerned?
20:35:58 John_Mullaney: pre approval for the project
20:36:12 John_Mullaney: let the text develop
20:36:19 JohnMayer: Get five teachers in one subject to write the first textbook - learn from the process - copy the process.
20:36:23 John_Mullaney: use the idea of The Wisdom of Crowds
20:36:50 lsanger: But how then do we get pre-approval for the project?
20:37:08 John_Mullaney: thats why the guys from the bureaucracies are here :-)
20:37:25 MattC: I like John's "five teachers" idea. Start small.
20:37:27 Mercedes: Inmy opinion, there has to be a lead to guide these teachers into designing/creating/compiling e-lessons.
20:37:33 John_Mullaney: we need to know how you get the ODE (for example) or the district to give the approval
20:37:41 John_Mullaney: is this easier done in charter schools than public
20:37:42 John_Mullaney: ??
20:38:16 JohnMayer: ... or don't start with a whole book, just a chapter that can be added to any course without the usual approval processes.
20:38:17 John_Mullaney: SMART is an EXCELLENT model
20:38:26 JohnMayer: What is SMART?
20:38:49 John_Mullaney: Science Math Achievment Required for Tomorrow
20:39:09 John_Mullaney: I think the site is www.oei.org
20:39:28 georgecviebranz: www.smartconsortium.org
20:39:56 georgecviebranz: John - new URL www.smartconsortium.org
20:40:08 John_Mullaney: thanks
20:40:46 John_Mullaney: I think the SMART work with the Universal Design for learining is a great model for linking use of wiki-based texts in curriculm
20:41:13 John_Mullaney: www.CAST.org for info on Universal Design for Learining
20:41:28 MattC: Charters are typically easier, smaller and site oversite. Although that might depend on the state and the type of charter school.
20:41:40 John_Mullaney: in Ohio they are called community schools.
20:41:55 Harold_Jarche: yes, CAST is a good, time-proven model
20:42:25 John_Mullaney: Maybe a way to look at doing a wiki-like model for public schools
20:42:28 dave-on-air: joyce - we can't find your skype account
20:42:33 erin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school
20:43:34 lsanger: What do you mean, John--"wiki-like model for public schools"?
20:45:22 Harold_Jarche: John, do you mean that universal design for learning would work well with wikis?
20:45:32 JohnMayer: John who?
20:45:47 Mercedes: At present I am training Latino parents at Gallistel Elementary in Chicago, I am not using wikis and its a challenging project!
20:45:59 georgecviebranz: www.ohiomsc.org statewide advocacy group for improving the mathematics, science and technology education system.
20:47:00 John_Mullaney: I think it might Larry
20:47:17 John_Mullaney: they to a lot of intensive training
20:50:19 dave-on-air: what project are you not involved in mercedes :)
20:51:19 georgecviebranz: www.raiseohio.org is the group that coordinates informal science providers in northern Ohio
20:52:08 Harold_Jarche: informal learning is for life
20:52:10 DougSymington: great comment regarding the power of informal learning
20:53:55 Mercedes: Hello Larry...
20:54:04 dave-on-air: ha
20:54:12 MattC: I agree with the usefullness of infornal learning, but I think, at least in the beginning it needs to be more formal.
20:54:26 John_Mullaney: I agree. but I see them as a part of the project
20:54:33 MattC: Agreed
20:54:34 John_Mullaney: not on the periphery as they are too often
20:54:37 Harold_Jarche: yes, informal-formal has been the great debate to date
20:55:16 DougSymington: even a formal system, one is well advised to capture the "back channel" so informal's not lost along the way
20:55:35 DougSymington: even in a formal...
20:55:37 JohnMayer: Formalize the informal in a backchannel?
20:55:39 John_Mullaney: well put Doug
20:56:47 DougSymington: I prefer to think of it as a "capture" rather than formalization, in terms of back channel
20:57:10 JohnMayer: Capture how?
20:57:20 John_Mullaney: Larry makes a good point. There is a particualr appeal to having this project linked to a public television and radio project.
20:57:20 DougSymington: perhaps a record of changes...
20:57:38 DougSymington: something that hints at process of how "answer" came to be
20:58:09 JohnMayer: Good idea. To me formal v. informal is just whether the "system" allows for capture or the end users must take responsibility for that.
20:58:13 DougSymington: "capture" the development of the "definition" "object" or "artifact"
21:00:02 John_Mullaney: Could this project ever get buy-in from the Educational Services Center in cleveland? or from the Superintendent of Schools Dr. Zelman?
21:00:21 JohnMayer: Exactly - supplements are the wedge.
21:01:17 Harold_Jarche: Google didn't try to be the prime online learning resource, it's design just made it the best
21:01:22 dave-on-air: hi jim
21:01:33 MattC: A supplement might be a nice way to start small and not have to worry about state-wide curriculum and school board acceptance.
21:01:42 Jim_Gould: Hi, Dave.
21:02:00 John_Mullaney: thanks you answered my question george
21:02:57 Harold_Jarche: I think we need to rethink curriculum, and wikis can subvert a top-down approach
21:03:03 DougSymington: Matt--good idea, a professional development supplement might be useful for beginning and new tech teachers
21:03:34 lsanger: Sorry folks, must be running!
21:04:03 DougSymington: challenge the learner
21:04:05 John_Mullaney: GREAT comment
21:04:13 Harold_Jarche: yes, Roy - create new questions
21:04:16 John_Mullaney: That's what it is about learining!!!!
21:04:17 JeffLebow: Would anyone else like to join in? We haven't heard from a lot of our listeners in a while and would love to hear from you
21:04:28 Harold_Jarche: "curriculum can be thought of as an illusion that has the appearance of truth" - Brian Alger
21:04:56 John_Mullaney: the wiki book is easy to product but it has to go with new ways to teaching to raise learining
21:05:27 JohnMayer: EASY TO PRODUCE??!
21:05:45 Jim_Gould: Good point, George. Getting the student hooked--engaged--is the most important part.
21:07:02 John_Mullaney: If you had three million dollars how would you spend it to make a project happen at Ideastream?
21:07:16 MattC: Students need to be engaged, but they also need to be able to understand.
21:07:48 MattC: How do we structure a wiki to promote understanding and engagement?
21:07:51 Harold_Jarche: it was designed by the Prussian military
21:08:35 JohnMayer: Standardized tests are a bane.
21:08:52 Harold_Jarche: bane is a nice word
21:09:02 MattC: sounds like a SAT word.
21:09:22 JohnMayer: :-)
21:09:24 Mercedes: e-portfolios, e-projects, collaborative tasks
21:09:25 JeffLebow: If anyone would like to join in, you can skype 'worldbridges' or call 1-603-574-4923
21:09:57 Mercedes: Still the site/portal could have practice tests for state standardized tests.
21:11:13 Mercedes: with teacher training included.
21:11:18 JohnMayer: He didn't answer the question.
21:11:33 dave-on-air: yes. i know.
21:11:48 MattC: I'm not sure it's about the money.
21:11:48 dave-on-air: they're crafty
21:12:14 JohnMayer: Plan for success!!
21:12:42 Harold_Jarche: how about targetting school drop-outs?
21:13:05 DougSymington: and potential drop outs
21:13:13 Harold_Jarche: that's me ;-)
21:13:18 DougSymington: lol
21:14:05 John_Mullaney: I agree Harold
21:14:09 Jim_Gould: Lakewood Schools has its own "charter school" housed within its high school. They serve students who have not succeeded in the traditional classroom. Three million could make this happen.
21:14:25 Harold_Jarche: sounds neat Jim
21:15:00 Jim_Gould: Before charter schools were called charter schools, Strongsville had a "school" housed at Center Middle School.
21:15:27 Harold_Jarche: involving students in building their own knowledge base may get them motivated - subject matter may not be traditional ...
21:15:37 Mercedes: Would you look at www.dibibridge.net and see how Chicago Public Schools are trying to reach its Latino population? Check e-courses link.
21:15:49 JohnMayer: If you had 100 teachers in Mathematics willing to give you 10 hours week for 6 months, what work would you have them do in the wikibooks sense?
21:16:09 Jim_Gould: Thanks for the tip, Mercedes.
21:16:13 John_Mullaney: suppose you had a spanish program in high school that required joint blogging with students in Mexico or Latin america
21:16:51 Mercedes: are you asking if that is possible, John?
21:17:09 John_Mullaney: that spanish teacher would have to make huge leap to work without a traditional text
21:17:45 John_Mullaney: it would be scary, but I bet kids would actually learn how to read and speak spanish rather than what happens now where they pass the tests and remain monolingual
21:17:45 Mercedes: that s why we need teacher training and a flexible approach in design
21:17:59 JohnMayer: I KNOW its possible, but what are the tasks that this group wants to accomplish?
21:18:03 John_Mullaney: and a place to do it
21:18:25 MattC: Use a wikipedia-like structure and have people sign up for tasks like development of chapters, activity design, editing.
21:18:38 John_Mullaney: yes
21:19:20 MattC: If someone sets up the space, people will want to be involved.
21:19:35 John_Mullaney: virtual/ real or both?
21:20:19 Mercedes: i think the term wikibook is not exactly what we are aiming at
21:20:20 Jim_Gould: I think both would be best.
21:21:54 John_Mullaney: businesses are looking for something meaninful to fund in education
21:21:59 Harold_Jarche: what? a job for life?
21:22:05 John_Mullaney: typically, they fund bricks and mortar
21:22:48 Harold_Jarche: most of the jobs that our children will have don't exist today
21:23:16 JohnMayer: teach 'em to fish.
21:23:22 John_Mullaney: Unfortunately Harold, there will always be lawyers
21:23:28 John_Mullaney: :-)
21:23:35 Harold_Jarche: lol
21:23:45 joycevalenza: maybe we could outsource to bangalour
21:23:59 Harold_Jarche: or New Brunswick ;-)
21:24:05 joycevalenza: :-)
21:24:38 Mercedes: or mexico for that matter lol
21:24:49 joycevalenza: right, mercedes
21:24:59 JohnMayer: I nominate Joyce for Executive Director of this project.
21:25:06 John_Mullaney: second
21:25:09 dave-on-air: http://www.edtechtalk.com/wiki/index.php/TBDNMCE
21:25:14 dave-on-air: come to my conference
21:25:28 JohnMayer: Mercedes for COO
21:25:35 Harold_Jarche: so Dave, are you saying we need to focus?
21:26:28 joycevalenza: i love spectaculars! can we dress up?
21:26:28 Harold_Jarche: lol
21:26:34 dave-on-air: oh yes
21:26:41 dave-on-air: lots of dresses
21:26:43 joycevalenza: great. i will find my tiara
21:26:45 Mercedes: count me in dave
21:26:47 John_Mullaney: it would be great if someone could help me sort out the website....we need one section to show all the different models of wikis that people have contributed over the last few weeks
21:26:53 Harold_Jarche: a masquerade ball perhaps?
21:26:59 dave-on-air: hi dee
21:27:18 joycevalenza: i will assign john winston to design my task
21:27:25 joycevalenza: and my tiara
21:27:30 dave-on-air: mmm tiara
21:27:54 JohnMayer: Instead of Exec Dir, perhaps Czarina?
21:28:11 joycevalenza: da!
21:28:13 Harold_Jarche: the thinking that got us into this situation won't get us out of it (Einstein?)
21:28:21 DougSymington: czarina does have a nice ring to it
21:28:48 Harold_Jarche: or is it tsarina?
21:29:02 joycevalenza: we need a transliteration wiki
21:29:10 Harold_Jarche: yo
21:29:11 DougSymington: ring's the same lol
21:29:29 georgecviebranz: looking forward to chatting and "meeting" all of you as you move down the road.
21:29:39 John_Mullaney: I think these two guys have been great. Thanks for your time
21:29:39 Harold_Jarche: is this chat degenerating?
21:29:41 JohnMayer: Thanks George!
21:29:46 DougSymington: thanks George, great show
21:30:00 deea: This has been a great discussion.
21:30:04 Mercedes: Thanks for another great meeting guys, look forward to next Wednesday.
21:30:04 Harold_Jarche: yes, thanks to the speakers - you did great - and some great new perspectives & ideas
21:30:22 joycevalenza: yes!
21:30:30 John_Mullaney: APPLAUSE
21:30:41 MattC: Well done
21:30:58 Jim_Gould: Good job!
21:31:13 JohnMayer: yup, more confused
21:31:19 Mercedes: why confused dave?
21:31:31 dave-on-air: that was jeff
21:31:34 dave-on-air: he'salways confused
21:31:37 JeffLebow: not conufsed... more overwhelmed
21:31:38 Mercedes: sorry jeff
21:31:53 JeffLebow: still not sure about the 'what next' part
21:31:57 Harold_Jarche: g'night all, gotta go
21:32:03 georgecviebranz: Jim Gould - are you the Strongsville Principal?
21:32:06 JeffLebow: g'night Harold
21:32:10 DougSymington: cya Harold
21:32:14 Mercedes: i think that we are definitely diverging from the pure concept of wikibook (freely editable and the rest)
21:32:35 John_Mullaney: Mercedes why not skype in?
21:32:39 joycevalenza: no!
21:33:00 MattC: Wikibooks evolved
21:33:10 Jim_Gould: Hi, George. I retired in July 2005. I was at Muraski 11 great years and miss everyone and everything very much. Please say hello to Jordan for me. It's been a long time since I've seen him. I enjoyed your comments very much. Great insight.
21:33:20 deea: I thik we should involve CTCNet (the national association of community technology centers. Also, let's not forget the role that handhelds can play in keeping the cost of technology down.
21:33:38 John_Mullaney: GREAT POINT Deea
21:33:56 georgecviebranz: Thanks Jim. I figured from your comments that it must have been you.
21:33:59 JohnMayer: How many of you are going to buy the Sony EReader at 12:01 am when it comes out?
21:34:24 georgecviebranz: I will say hello to Jordan for you. He should be calling me from KSU any minute now to tell me that he needs money.
21:34:58 Jim_Gould: Sounds like he is very normal! He's a great kid.
21:35:13 georgecviebranz: Thanks - must be his mom's genes.
21:35:37 dave-on-air: i'm still anti-sony at the moment
21:36:45 dave-on-air: still irritated over the rootkit thingy
21:36:57 MattC: The sony librie looks pretty neat, almost like real paper. Although I'm not sure how / if it handles multimedia
21:37:09 deea: Have you thought about the ever increasing home school market?
21:37:14 Jim_Gould: Mercedes is making an excellent point. When students are actively engaged with content, that is when they learn...study the wiki information, reflect, experiment, then construct their own meaning as their contribution.
21:38:09 deea: Sort of the I-search, inquiry based learning.
21:39:21 John_Mullaney: This is a great point Jim. That is why I think there is an advantage to have pods across the country that would work with teachers to help them free the students to do this kind of work
21:39:23 Jim_Gould: Less is more...at first, at least. Identify those content standards with which most students are struggling. Identify best practices. Get lesson study in place. That's a start. Plus, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Make the students "sweat." Let them find answers.
21:39:25 dave-on-air: http://integratetech.net/wikitext/index.php?title=Flash_testing
21:39:32 dave-on-air: flash in wiki
21:39:42 John_Mullaney: Oh Jim....why did you retire
21:39:45 John_Mullaney: we need you
21:40:49 Jim_Gould: I wish I had not retired...and the reason I retired sounds "made up." But, I'm moving forward for new challenges.
21:41:11 JohnMayer: Shorthand Mercedes = stop cutting bait, start fishing.
21:41:17 dave-on-air: yes
21:41:34 joycevalenza: should we start with a universal? AP something?
21:42:31 MattC: We need some sort of structure and content. I say Early American History or Ancient Civilizations, but hey I'm a history teacher.
21:42:56 dave-on-air: i want to write the early american history one
21:43:10 JohnMayer: Create first - you have to have something to demo.
21:43:19 John_Mullaney: so, can this site be a place to get this going?
21:43:25 Jim_Gould: How about The Great Compromise?
21:45:27 John_Mullaney: why not take the best lessons from Ohio teachers, RAISE, SMART wend them together through a site and start that way.
21:45:39 dave-on-air: lessons aren't curriculum john
21:45:51 John_Mullaney: no, but use that as a start
21:45:51 georgecviebranz: My "strawman" suggestion is to look at a project in connected middle grades science. TIMSS data and current practice in US would suggest that there is a valid need in that area. AAAS Benchmarks for middle grades could be a great guide. http://www.project2061.org/publications/bsl/default.htm?nav
21:45:53 dave-on-air: imagine that process
21:46:19 joycevalenza: must go, folks. good night
21:46:48 JohnMayer: Gotta go. Thanks folks. Sorry if I was so wordy in the chat room. I am working on a similar project in my own area and will come back and let you know how it works out. Regards.
21:46:58 Jim_Gould: Excellent point, John. Our country has many excellent teachers, and they have created many excellent lessons...and I just read George's comment...middle grades science.
21:47:10 deea: There is a district in Colorado I believe that has gone completely paperless. I will get that information.
21:47:30 John_Mullaney: I think Gilmour academy has a text-less curriculum
21:47:52 John_Mullaney: also, I understand Phillips exeter academy does not use texts in the Harkness table.
21:48:11 MattC: I don't use textbooks. I would like to use wikis, but student access from home is an issue.
21:48:46 Jim_Gould: Good point, Matt. Widening the gap.
21:49:09 John_Mullaney: what about use of ipods or cell phones
21:49:36 John_Mullaney: other types of technology for kids to use at home.
21:50:27 Jim_Gould: Great point, John. Isn't it Bill Gates who developed the $100 laptop for kids in poor countries? Or, am I thinking of someone else?
21:50:48 DougSymington: I think cell phones become more viable w/ move toward 'casting of one type or another
21:51:07 MattC: Nick Negroponte. Other devices might be possible, but it is difficult for handhelds to handle certain file formats.
21:51:26 DougSymington: think it's the lab at MIT with $100 laptop--think display is still the hard part
21:52:37 georgecviebranz: Matt, That is a very important factor. One big advantage to "bricks and mortar" is that it is a place that provides equal access for the attendance area for 6-7hours per day. Books, supposedly, give kids equal access outside of school. Equal quality and opportunity to learn is more of an access issue dependig on where one lives.
21:53:26 Jim_Gould: And, a student's education should not depend on where her or his parents happen to live.
21:53:46 DougSymington: Hi Buthaina
21:53:52 MattC: There are interesting the tech issues even in affluent communities.
21:54:18 deea: I think it may be Blacksburg, VA that has provided (at a small charge) internet access for all its citizens. An area like that might be a good first try. Again, the role of community technology centers could be very important.
21:54:46 John_Mullaney: I agree deea
21:55:14 buthaina: Hi Doug and all..
21:55:17 John_Mullaney: but some of the most successful inner city schools are private and have days that go well beyond the 2:30 dismissal time
21:55:27 deea: The State of Indiana provides SimDesk accounts for every resident. So does the City of Houston. Should we look at some cities/states that are progressing that way?
21:56:17 buthaina: A bit late but just managed my connection here from my room in a hotel in Beirut..
21:56:53 buthaina: lost the sound now
21:57:13 MattC: I don't think we need an entire community that is wired, but at least a school that can provide access.
21:57:13 buthaina: ok now
21:57:27 DougSymington: thanks to all for a wonderful discussion
21:59:38 buthaina: Ok, lookig forward to listening to the audio recording of this session.
22:00:01 MattC: Good night to all and to all a good night.
22:00:42 buthaina: Good nightto all..
19:55:19 Mercedes: Hi everybody
19:55:24 erin: hi mercedes!
19:58:19 dave-on-air: well...
19:58:22 dave-on-air: here we are again
19:58:50 dave-on-air: everyone ready?
19:58:54 dave-on-air: 3 minutes to air time
19:59:54 JohnMayer: So is it WIKI or TEXTBOOKS?
20:00:00 dave-on-air: mmm...
20:00:04 dave-on-air: wikitextbooks
20:00:07 dave-on-air: so kinda both
20:00:24 dave-on-air: or maybe westractorals
20:00:31 JohnMayer: ...but a WIKI that takes solid form every so often to become a TEXTBOOK.
20:00:31 Harold_Jarche: we don't have any opinions ;-)
20:00:36 Mercedes: sounds not that good
20:00:41 dave-on-air: (word i just made up to dodge the naming issue)
20:00:52 Mercedes: good
20:00:52 dave-on-air: at least in part
20:01:16 dave-on-air: i don't think that the wiki needs to be uniform
20:01:21 dave-on-air: some parts can be solid
20:01:24 dave-on-air: and others changeable
20:02:11 JohnMayer: Do textbooks change during the semester?
20:02:13 DougSymington: much better re audio right now
20:02:55 dave-on-air: ah. john
20:03:01 dave-on-air: that's a debate that we've had many times here
20:03:11 JohnMayer: Yeah- just warming up.
20:03:24 dave-on-air: perfect
20:03:30 dave-on-air: you're in good company
20:05:22 dave-on-air: hi joyce!
20:05:26 john_Mullaney: Hello Joyce
20:05:35 john_Mullaney: Great article in the Philadelphia Inquirer
20:05:41 joycevalenza: shucks! thanks
20:06:29 dave-on-air: yes. joyce is very cool.
20:06:34 dave-on-air: anyone got that link for us?
20:07:03 dave-on-air: hi larry
20:07:09 lsanger: Hi all, hi Dave
20:07:21 lsanger: Very curious where you're going with this.
20:07:33 dave-on-air: so are we... :)
20:07:49 JohnMayer: http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/business/13680242.htm?source=rss&chan...
20:07:56 dave-on-air: thanks john
20:09:23 John_Mullaney: Who funds NORTA?
20:12:30 JohnMayer: Practical is good.
20:12:50 dave-on-air: yes we like practical
20:13:34 John_Mullaney: the districts with the digital divide is the group that should have priority
20:13:57 JohnMayer: Bridge over digital divide=wiki-->www.lulu.com?
20:14:13 lsanger: to find the money to print them?
20:14:20 lsanger: Sorry...
20:14:47 lsanger: If free printable PDFs were available, do you think school districts would find money to print?
20:14:48 John_Mullaney: but the reason why philanthropy is in the picture is to provide the resources that are needed to those who are on the frindges
20:15:03 erin: i'm curious as to why this conversation about wikis always floats back to printing.
20:15:08 JohnMayer: Chicken and egg
20:15:14 joycevalenza: but it may be the teacher contributors are likely to come from other areas
20:15:26 Mercedes: As an instructinal designer I find that our vision has to be able to reach as many users of the "book" as possible.
20:15:40 erin: if all these wikis are going to do is imitate textbooks, then what's the point?
20:15:53 John_Mullaney: I suspect we are talking about the ways teachers are trained to use the technology which makes books secondary
20:16:05 lsanger: Wiki is a tool for creating the free, reliable text--not the destination. That's my view...
20:16:13 MattC: Big issue, how would it improve upon traditional texts? What do teachers / students want?
20:16:23 Mercedes: Joyce you are so right. We can use contributions from the best teachers all over the world, and the final product can reach students in all areas.
20:16:28 JohnMayer: Wrap wiki in export software to PDF, RTF, etc. These can be printed.
20:16:31 joycevalenza: i agree, erin.
20:16:36 erin: if a wiki is not the destination, then what is?
20:16:45 joycevalenza: why would we need to decide who gets it first
20:16:55 John_Mullaney: A pilot site could bring teachers from both sides of the digital divide together to figure out ways to make the wikis work best in their classrooms
20:17:01 lsanger: The paper textbook in the hands of a kid without a computer.
20:17:05 JohnMayer: Think of the teacher's syllabus as a sort of playlist that points to wiki content.
20:17:18 joycevalenza: i think we need to start with some kind of prototype soon
20:17:23 John_Mullaney: We need to talk about what a pilot site could and should include
20:17:24 dave-on-air: agreed
20:17:30 dave-on-air: that's why we're here joyce
20:17:45 dave-on-air: i hope
20:18:03 dave-on-air: i am humbled
20:18:10 Mercedes: right
20:18:11 dave-on-air: there is now... a superdave
20:18:11 JohnMayer: How do you incent teachers to participate?
20:18:24 John_Mullaney: Are the districts willing to work with the ODE to rethink how the funds are allocated to technology vs. textbooks
20:18:44 joycevalenza: i think we need to organize. the lists?
20:18:48 Mercedes: You'd be surprised how many teachers would be wiling to participate in such a project
20:18:57 joycevalenza: present the ideas at confs?
20:18:58 John_Mullaney: I agree Mercedes
20:19:18 joycevalenza: few really know of the possibilities yet
20:19:21 John_Mullaney: I am surprised by the number of teachers I have spoken with in this Ohio area who teach without a text
20:19:24 JohnMayer: So all we need is the tool/wiki and they will jump in?
20:20:03 joycevalenza: we need a frame to begin. a core. then we create a teachers' ed and a student ed along side
20:20:26 John_Mullaney: can you do this virtuallly? or is it more effective in a place
20:20:45 John_Mullaney: how much face to face to you need to develop a foundation to start the wiki
20:20:48 joycevalenza: i am going to propose this tomorrow at a regional tech meeting
20:20:49 JohnMayer: A core/frame of content or a framework to accept content?
20:21:28 Mercedes: I feel we need to validate content and the "book" itself according to both content and e-learning standards.
20:21:54 John_Mullaney: is there an uber validation group? or can they be localized?
20:22:20 JohnMayer: Both
20:22:22 John_Mullaney: What is the best medum for them to communicate?
20:22:35 joycevalenza: perhaps the uber group happens in the traditional text part. then the open source spirit in the other two areas
20:22:36 John_Mullaney: what role could a place like SMART and ideacenter have in this
20:22:49 John_Mullaney: I would agree Joyce
20:23:04 lsanger: John Mullaney--starting a wiki doesn't necessarily require any face-to-face. Other elements might require face-to-face, though, like negotiations with a school district.
20:23:17 John_Mullaney: good point
20:23:22 JohnMayer: Soo content starts opensource and graduates to traditional text via editorial board approval?
20:23:47 joycevalenza: that's my concept, though I come at it as a suburban princess
20:23:58 John_Mullaney: Would a project look like several pilot sites across the country that blend the virtual wiki part along with some face to face?
20:24:01 joycevalenza: who already has and is disatisfied with texts
20:24:03 DougSymington: Joyce--I think you've nailed it re "open source spirit" which is key to develop and sustainability
20:24:11 JohnMayer: Sounds good. Who vets who gets to be on the editorial board that does the approval?
20:24:25 DougSymington: development
20:24:29 lsanger: I think "stable versions" of the text are in order--editions released from time to time that are reliable. The text can undergo continuous improvement because it's a wiki
20:24:32 John_Mullaney: Good question Dave
20:24:39 dave-on-air: oh.
20:24:41 dave-on-air: thanks
20:24:53 Harold_Jarche: Speaking of books, I like Dave Warlick's statement, "No generation in history has ever been so thoroughly prepared for the industrial age."
20:25:03 dave-on-air: lol
20:25:04 lsanger: I agree, answer Dave's question please
20:25:11 John_Mullaney: agreed Larry, but we would also want to have a "place" where teachers could be trained to use the wiki as a compliment to thier own teaching
20:25:15 joycevalenza: yes!
20:25:20 lsanger: I mean John Mayer's question...
20:25:21 Mercedes: definitely
20:25:39 lsanger: Right, of course
20:25:40 JohnMayer: Training should be online and asynchronous as well.
20:25:50 joycevalenza: i believe critical mass already exists. we need to just alert web 1.0 teachers to web 2.0
20:26:01 Harold_Jarche: yes, Joyce
20:26:07 John_Mullaney: the teachers will get it, it is often the principles, superintendents who are burdened with other issues that could slow this down
20:26:12 joycevalenza: how many wonderful teacher sites already exist
20:26:28 John_Mullaney: who knows where they are?
20:26:31 Harold_Jarche: great stuff on PBS
20:26:38 John_Mullaney: is there one site that aggregates these sites?
20:26:43 John_Mullaney: are they easily accessible?
20:26:59 John_Mullaney: do good teachers know how to access them and use them?
20:27:05 lsanger: A computer science text would get a lot of coders excited about this project...
20:27:26 lsanger: Excited coders = free programming services
20:27:27 MattC: What are we training the teachers to do? Add content, shape content, teaching students to add to the wiki?
20:27:29 erin: but are coders the people that need to be excited about this?
20:27:56 JohnMayer: Training teachers to use wikis and understand how they work. Yes?
20:28:08 erin: all the free programming in the world won't help if teachers don't get behind this.
20:28:14 John_Mullaney: teacher are worked with to understand how the technology can be used to enhance their students learning
20:28:56 MattC: How will it be used to enhance learning, aside from just a traditional text?
20:29:04 JohnMayer: Hmmmmm...money is not really a problem here. Certainly not the biggest problem if you have all these teachers willing to participate.
20:29:32 dave-on-air: good question matt... maybe we'll get there later...
20:29:57 John_Mullaney: That's why I think we need to have centers for teaching and learning
20:30:03 John_Mullaney: this is a process
20:30:13 John_Mullaney: a wiki book or whatever is merely a tool
20:30:17 lsanger: MattC--there are two concurrent proposals, as I hear it. One is to create free textbooks. That won't "enhance learning" except by having up-to-date textbooks. The other proposal is some sort of collaborative learning tool...
20:30:37 JohnMayer: ebooks enhance learning in the following ways...
20:30:47 JohnMayer: 1. they cannot get lost
20:30:54 JohnMayer: 2. they can be searched
20:31:00 JohnMayer: 3. they are cheaper to copy
20:31:03 JohnMayer: Others?
20:31:14 Mercedes: Can be updated regularly
20:31:25 Mercedes: Already include multimedia
20:31:26 lsanger: Yes, and a wiki-developed book would exist in an ebook format too.
20:31:32 JohnMayer: 4 or 5. can be turned into MP3 for the blind
20:31:35 Mercedes: exactly
20:31:47 MattC: In order to attract teachers administrators, we need to show them how wiki are better.
20:31:57 Mercedes: absolutely, we can provide different versions, including for the blind and deaf
20:32:09 Harold_Jarche: great ideas from these guys :)
20:32:22 dave-on-air: thanks....
20:32:23 John_Mullaney: good point matt
20:32:23 dave-on-air: oh wait
20:32:26 dave-on-air: you didn't mean me
20:32:28 SuperDaveUMO: 6. Can create a centralized place to change the data (ie a central server)
20:32:29 dave-on-air: :)
20:32:36 JohnMayer: This links ebooks to podcasting.
20:33:23 JohnMayer: 7. ebooks weigh less (easier to carry - less chiropractor bills)
20:33:28 joycevalenza: why unfortunately suburbs?
20:33:37 joycevalenza: it has to start somewhere!
20:33:53 Mercedes: disadvantages districts with no internet labs can get a cd-rom version, even.
20:34:08 Harold_Jarche: joyce, i think that Roy was referring to Nord Foundation's mission
20:34:09 DougSymington: great point Mercedes
20:34:21 JohnMayer: 8. font can be increased for low-visiion folks or for classroom projection
20:34:31 John_Mullaney: Why not have a place where teachers from the suburbs and from the inner city could work together to develop content as well as delivery methods in classrooms
20:34:43 Mercedes: a portal
20:34:46 DougSymington: this could be supplied as a "click here for CD" link from online version
20:34:53 JohnMayer: Place = Internet
20:35:01 dave-on-air: like the ubuntu mail out for the CD
20:35:11 DougSymington: xactly
20:35:44 Mercedes: student achievement can be measured from the "book" or the cd
20:35:44 lsanger: Question: what comes first: approach school districts to get some sort of pre-approval for a textbook project, or get approval after the textbook has been written? What's the easiest way forward as far as getting textbook approval is concerned?
20:35:58 John_Mullaney: pre approval for the project
20:36:12 John_Mullaney: let the text develop
20:36:19 JohnMayer: Get five teachers in one subject to write the first textbook - learn from the process - copy the process.
20:36:23 John_Mullaney: use the idea of The Wisdom of Crowds
20:36:50 lsanger: But how then do we get pre-approval for the project?
20:37:08 John_Mullaney: thats why the guys from the bureaucracies are here :-)
20:37:25 MattC: I like John's "five teachers" idea. Start small.
20:37:27 Mercedes: Inmy opinion, there has to be a lead to guide these teachers into designing/creating/compiling e-lessons.
20:37:33 John_Mullaney: we need to know how you get the ODE (for example) or the district to give the approval
20:37:41 John_Mullaney: is this easier done in charter schools than public
20:37:42 John_Mullaney: ??
20:38:16 JohnMayer: ... or don't start with a whole book, just a chapter that can be added to any course without the usual approval processes.
20:38:17 John_Mullaney: SMART is an EXCELLENT model
20:38:26 JohnMayer: What is SMART?
20:38:49 John_Mullaney: Science Math Achievment Required for Tomorrow
20:39:09 John_Mullaney: I think the site is www.oei.org
20:39:28 georgecviebranz: www.smartconsortium.org
20:39:56 georgecviebranz: John - new URL www.smartconsortium.org
20:40:08 John_Mullaney: thanks
20:40:46 John_Mullaney: I think the SMART work with the Universal Design for learining is a great model for linking use of wiki-based texts in curriculm
20:41:13 John_Mullaney: www.CAST.org for info on Universal Design for Learining
20:41:28 MattC: Charters are typically easier, smaller and site oversite. Although that might depend on the state and the type of charter school.
20:41:40 John_Mullaney: in Ohio they are called community schools.
20:41:55 Harold_Jarche: yes, CAST is a good, time-proven model
20:42:25 John_Mullaney: Maybe a way to look at doing a wiki-like model for public schools
20:42:28 dave-on-air: joyce - we can't find your skype account
20:42:33 erin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_school
20:43:34 lsanger: What do you mean, John--"wiki-like model for public schools"?
20:45:22 Harold_Jarche: John, do you mean that universal design for learning would work well with wikis?
20:45:32 JohnMayer: John who?
20:45:47 Mercedes: At present I am training Latino parents at Gallistel Elementary in Chicago, I am not using wikis and its a challenging project!
20:45:59 georgecviebranz: www.ohiomsc.org statewide advocacy group for improving the mathematics, science and technology education system.
20:47:00 John_Mullaney: I think it might Larry
20:47:17 John_Mullaney: they to a lot of intensive training
20:50:19 dave-on-air: what project are you not involved in mercedes :)
20:51:19 georgecviebranz: www.raiseohio.org is the group that coordinates informal science providers in northern Ohio
20:52:08 Harold_Jarche: informal learning is for life
20:52:10 DougSymington: great comment regarding the power of informal learning
20:53:55 Mercedes: Hello Larry...
20:54:04 dave-on-air: ha
20:54:12 MattC: I agree with the usefullness of infornal learning, but I think, at least in the beginning it needs to be more formal.
20:54:26 John_Mullaney: I agree. but I see them as a part of the project
20:54:33 MattC: Agreed
20:54:34 John_Mullaney: not on the periphery as they are too often
20:54:37 Harold_Jarche: yes, informal-formal has been the great debate to date
20:55:16 DougSymington: even a formal system, one is well advised to capture the "back channel" so informal's not lost along the way
20:55:35 DougSymington: even in a formal...
20:55:37 JohnMayer: Formalize the informal in a backchannel?
20:55:39 John_Mullaney: well put Doug
20:56:47 DougSymington: I prefer to think of it as a "capture" rather than formalization, in terms of back channel
20:57:10 JohnMayer: Capture how?
20:57:20 John_Mullaney: Larry makes a good point. There is a particualr appeal to having this project linked to a public television and radio project.
20:57:20 DougSymington: perhaps a record of changes...
20:57:38 DougSymington: something that hints at process of how "answer" came to be
20:58:09 JohnMayer: Good idea. To me formal v. informal is just whether the "system" allows for capture or the end users must take responsibility for that.
20:58:13 DougSymington: "capture" the development of the "definition" "object" or "artifact"
21:00:02 John_Mullaney: Could this project ever get buy-in from the Educational Services Center in cleveland? or from the Superintendent of Schools Dr. Zelman?
21:00:21 JohnMayer: Exactly - supplements are the wedge.
21:01:17 Harold_Jarche: Google didn't try to be the prime online learning resource, it's design just made it the best
21:01:22 dave-on-air: hi jim
21:01:33 MattC: A supplement might be a nice way to start small and not have to worry about state-wide curriculum and school board acceptance.
21:01:42 Jim_Gould: Hi, Dave.
21:02:00 John_Mullaney: thanks you answered my question george
21:02:57 Harold_Jarche: I think we need to rethink curriculum, and wikis can subvert a top-down approach
21:03:03 DougSymington: Matt--good idea, a professional development supplement might be useful for beginning and new tech teachers
21:03:34 lsanger: Sorry folks, must be running!
21:04:03 DougSymington: challenge the learner
21:04:05 John_Mullaney: GREAT comment
21:04:13 Harold_Jarche: yes, Roy - create new questions
21:04:16 John_Mullaney: That's what it is about learining!!!!
21:04:17 JeffLebow: Would anyone else like to join in? We haven't heard from a lot of our listeners in a while and would love to hear from you
21:04:28 Harold_Jarche: "curriculum can be thought of as an illusion that has the appearance of truth" - Brian Alger
21:04:56 John_Mullaney: the wiki book is easy to product but it has to go with new ways to teaching to raise learining
21:05:27 JohnMayer: EASY TO PRODUCE??!
21:05:45 Jim_Gould: Good point, George. Getting the student hooked--engaged--is the most important part.
21:07:02 John_Mullaney: If you had three million dollars how would you spend it to make a project happen at Ideastream?
21:07:16 MattC: Students need to be engaged, but they also need to be able to understand.
21:07:48 MattC: How do we structure a wiki to promote understanding and engagement?
21:07:51 Harold_Jarche: it was designed by the Prussian military
21:08:35 JohnMayer: Standardized tests are a bane.
21:08:52 Harold_Jarche: bane is a nice word
21:09:02 MattC: sounds like a SAT word.
21:09:22 JohnMayer: :-)
21:09:24 Mercedes: e-portfolios, e-projects, collaborative tasks
21:09:25 JeffLebow: If anyone would like to join in, you can skype 'worldbridges' or call 1-603-574-4923
21:09:57 Mercedes: Still the site/portal could have practice tests for state standardized tests.
21:11:13 Mercedes: with teacher training included.
21:11:18 JohnMayer: He didn't answer the question.
21:11:33 dave-on-air: yes. i know.
21:11:48 MattC: I'm not sure it's about the money.
21:11:48 dave-on-air: they're crafty
21:12:14 JohnMayer: Plan for success!!
21:12:42 Harold_Jarche: how about targetting school drop-outs?
21:13:05 DougSymington: and potential drop outs
21:13:13 Harold_Jarche: that's me ;-)
21:13:18 DougSymington: lol
21:14:05 John_Mullaney: I agree Harold
21:14:09 Jim_Gould: Lakewood Schools has its own "charter school" housed within its high school. They serve students who have not succeeded in the traditional classroom. Three million could make this happen.
21:14:25 Harold_Jarche: sounds neat Jim
21:15:00 Jim_Gould: Before charter schools were called charter schools, Strongsville had a "school" housed at Center Middle School.
21:15:27 Harold_Jarche: involving students in building their own knowledge base may get them motivated - subject matter may not be traditional ...
21:15:37 Mercedes: Would you look at www.dibibridge.net and see how Chicago Public Schools are trying to reach its Latino population? Check e-courses link.
21:15:49 JohnMayer: If you had 100 teachers in Mathematics willing to give you 10 hours week for 6 months, what work would you have them do in the wikibooks sense?
21:16:09 Jim_Gould: Thanks for the tip, Mercedes.
21:16:13 John_Mullaney: suppose you had a spanish program in high school that required joint blogging with students in Mexico or Latin america
21:16:51 Mercedes: are you asking if that is possible, John?
21:17:09 John_Mullaney: that spanish teacher would have to make huge leap to work without a traditional text
21:17:45 John_Mullaney: it would be scary, but I bet kids would actually learn how to read and speak spanish rather than what happens now where they pass the tests and remain monolingual
21:17:45 Mercedes: that s why we need teacher training and a flexible approach in design
21:17:59 JohnMayer: I KNOW its possible, but what are the tasks that this group wants to accomplish?
21:18:03 John_Mullaney: and a place to do it
21:18:25 MattC: Use a wikipedia-like structure and have people sign up for tasks like development of chapters, activity design, editing.
21:18:38 John_Mullaney: yes
21:19:20 MattC: If someone sets up the space, people will want to be involved.
21:19:35 John_Mullaney: virtual/ real or both?
21:20:19 Mercedes: i think the term wikibook is not exactly what we are aiming at
21:20:20 Jim_Gould: I think both would be best.
21:21:54 John_Mullaney: businesses are looking for something meaninful to fund in education
21:21:59 Harold_Jarche: what? a job for life?
21:22:05 John_Mullaney: typically, they fund bricks and mortar
21:22:48 Harold_Jarche: most of the jobs that our children will have don't exist today
21:23:16 JohnMayer: teach 'em to fish.
21:23:22 John_Mullaney: Unfortunately Harold, there will always be lawyers
21:23:28 John_Mullaney: :-)
21:23:35 Harold_Jarche: lol
21:23:45 joycevalenza: maybe we could outsource to bangalour
21:23:59 Harold_Jarche: or New Brunswick ;-)
21:24:05 joycevalenza: :-)
21:24:38 Mercedes: or mexico for that matter lol
21:24:49 joycevalenza: right, mercedes
21:24:59 JohnMayer: I nominate Joyce for Executive Director of this project.
21:25:06 John_Mullaney: second
21:25:09 dave-on-air: http://www.edtechtalk.com/wiki/index.php/TBDNMCE
21:25:14 dave-on-air: come to my conference
21:25:28 JohnMayer: Mercedes for COO
21:25:35 Harold_Jarche: so Dave, are you saying we need to focus?
21:26:28 joycevalenza: i love spectaculars! can we dress up?
21:26:28 Harold_Jarche: lol
21:26:34 dave-on-air: oh yes
21:26:41 dave-on-air: lots of dresses
21:26:43 joycevalenza: great. i will find my tiara
21:26:45 Mercedes: count me in dave
21:26:47 John_Mullaney: it would be great if someone could help me sort out the website....we need one section to show all the different models of wikis that people have contributed over the last few weeks
21:26:53 Harold_Jarche: a masquerade ball perhaps?
21:26:59 dave-on-air: hi dee
21:27:18 joycevalenza: i will assign john winston to design my task
21:27:25 joycevalenza: and my tiara
21:27:30 dave-on-air: mmm tiara
21:27:54 JohnMayer: Instead of Exec Dir, perhaps Czarina?
21:28:11 joycevalenza: da!
21:28:13 Harold_Jarche: the thinking that got us into this situation won't get us out of it (Einstein?)
21:28:21 DougSymington: czarina does have a nice ring to it
21:28:48 Harold_Jarche: or is it tsarina?
21:29:02 joycevalenza: we need a transliteration wiki
21:29:10 Harold_Jarche: yo
21:29:11 DougSymington: ring's the same lol
21:29:29 georgecviebranz: looking forward to chatting and "meeting" all of you as you move down the road.
21:29:39 John_Mullaney: I think these two guys have been great. Thanks for your time
21:29:39 Harold_Jarche: is this chat degenerating?
21:29:41 JohnMayer: Thanks George!
21:29:46 DougSymington: thanks George, great show
21:30:00 deea: This has been a great discussion.
21:30:04 Mercedes: Thanks for another great meeting guys, look forward to next Wednesday.
21:30:04 Harold_Jarche: yes, thanks to the speakers - you did great - and some great new perspectives & ideas
21:30:22 joycevalenza: yes!
21:30:30 John_Mullaney: APPLAUSE
21:30:41 MattC: Well done
21:30:58 Jim_Gould: Good job!
21:31:13 JohnMayer: yup, more confused
21:31:19 Mercedes: why confused dave?
21:31:31 dave-on-air: that was jeff
21:31:34 dave-on-air: he'salways confused
21:31:37 JeffLebow: not conufsed... more overwhelmed
21:31:38 Mercedes: sorry jeff
21:31:53 JeffLebow: still not sure about the 'what next' part
21:31:57 Harold_Jarche: g'night all, gotta go
21:32:03 georgecviebranz: Jim Gould - are you the Strongsville Principal?
21:32:06 JeffLebow: g'night Harold
21:32:10 DougSymington: cya Harold
21:32:14 Mercedes: i think that we are definitely diverging from the pure concept of wikibook (freely editable and the rest)
21:32:35 John_Mullaney: Mercedes why not skype in?
21:32:39 joycevalenza: no!
21:33:00 MattC: Wikibooks evolved
21:33:10 Jim_Gould: Hi, George. I retired in July 2005. I was at Muraski 11 great years and miss everyone and everything very much. Please say hello to Jordan for me. It's been a long time since I've seen him. I enjoyed your comments very much. Great insight.
21:33:20 deea: I thik we should involve CTCNet (the national association of community technology centers. Also, let's not forget the role that handhelds can play in keeping the cost of technology down.
21:33:38 John_Mullaney: GREAT POINT Deea
21:33:56 georgecviebranz: Thanks Jim. I figured from your comments that it must have been you.
21:33:59 JohnMayer: How many of you are going to buy the Sony EReader at 12:01 am when it comes out?
21:34:24 georgecviebranz: I will say hello to Jordan for you. He should be calling me from KSU any minute now to tell me that he needs money.
21:34:58 Jim_Gould: Sounds like he is very normal! He's a great kid.
21:35:13 georgecviebranz: Thanks - must be his mom's genes.
21:35:37 dave-on-air: i'm still anti-sony at the moment
21:36:45 dave-on-air: still irritated over the rootkit thingy
21:36:57 MattC: The sony librie looks pretty neat, almost like real paper. Although I'm not sure how / if it handles multimedia
21:37:09 deea: Have you thought about the ever increasing home school market?
21:37:14 Jim_Gould: Mercedes is making an excellent point. When students are actively engaged with content, that is when they learn...study the wiki information, reflect, experiment, then construct their own meaning as their contribution.
21:38:09 deea: Sort of the I-search, inquiry based learning.
21:39:21 John_Mullaney: This is a great point Jim. That is why I think there is an advantage to have pods across the country that would work with teachers to help them free the students to do this kind of work
21:39:23 Jim_Gould: Less is more...at first, at least. Identify those content standards with which most students are struggling. Identify best practices. Get lesson study in place. That's a start. Plus, we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Make the students "sweat." Let them find answers.
21:39:25 dave-on-air: http://integratetech.net/wikitext/index.php?title=Flash_testing
21:39:32 dave-on-air: flash in wiki
21:39:42 John_Mullaney: Oh Jim....why did you retire
21:39:45 John_Mullaney: we need you
21:40:49 Jim_Gould: I wish I had not retired...and the reason I retired sounds "made up." But, I'm moving forward for new challenges.
21:41:11 JohnMayer: Shorthand Mercedes = stop cutting bait, start fishing.
21:41:17 dave-on-air: yes
21:41:34 joycevalenza: should we start with a universal? AP something?
21:42:31 MattC: We need some sort of structure and content. I say Early American History or Ancient Civilizations, but hey I'm a history teacher.
21:42:56 dave-on-air: i want to write the early american history one
21:43:10 JohnMayer: Create first - you have to have something to demo.
21:43:19 John_Mullaney: so, can this site be a place to get this going?
21:43:25 Jim_Gould: How about The Great Compromise?
21:45:27 John_Mullaney: why not take the best lessons from Ohio teachers, RAISE, SMART wend them together through a site and start that way.
21:45:39 dave-on-air: lessons aren't curriculum john
21:45:51 John_Mullaney: no, but use that as a start
21:45:51 georgecviebranz: My "strawman" suggestion is to look at a project in connected middle grades science. TIMSS data and current practice in US would suggest that there is a valid need in that area. AAAS Benchmarks for middle grades could be a great guide. http://www.project2061.org/publications/bsl/default.htm?nav
21:45:53 dave-on-air: imagine that process
21:46:19 joycevalenza: must go, folks. good night
21:46:48 JohnMayer: Gotta go. Thanks folks. Sorry if I was so wordy in the chat room. I am working on a similar project in my own area and will come back and let you know how it works out. Regards.
21:46:58 Jim_Gould: Excellent point, John. Our country has many excellent teachers, and they have created many excellent lessons...and I just read George's comment...middle grades science.
21:47:10 deea: There is a district in Colorado I believe that has gone completely paperless. I will get that information.
21:47:30 John_Mullaney: I think Gilmour academy has a text-less curriculum
21:47:52 John_Mullaney: also, I understand Phillips exeter academy does not use texts in the Harkness table.
21:48:11 MattC: I don't use textbooks. I would like to use wikis, but student access from home is an issue.
21:48:46 Jim_Gould: Good point, Matt. Widening the gap.
21:49:09 John_Mullaney: what about use of ipods or cell phones
21:49:36 John_Mullaney: other types of technology for kids to use at home.
21:50:27 Jim_Gould: Great point, John. Isn't it Bill Gates who developed the $100 laptop for kids in poor countries? Or, am I thinking of someone else?
21:50:48 DougSymington: I think cell phones become more viable w/ move toward 'casting of one type or another
21:51:07 MattC: Nick Negroponte. Other devices might be possible, but it is difficult for handhelds to handle certain file formats.
21:51:26 DougSymington: think it's the lab at MIT with $100 laptop--think display is still the hard part
21:52:37 georgecviebranz: Matt, That is a very important factor. One big advantage to "bricks and mortar" is that it is a place that provides equal access for the attendance area for 6-7hours per day. Books, supposedly, give kids equal access outside of school. Equal quality and opportunity to learn is more of an access issue dependig on where one lives.
21:53:26 Jim_Gould: And, a student's education should not depend on where her or his parents happen to live.
21:53:46 DougSymington: Hi Buthaina
21:53:52 MattC: There are interesting the tech issues even in affluent communities.
21:54:18 deea: I think it may be Blacksburg, VA that has provided (at a small charge) internet access for all its citizens. An area like that might be a good first try. Again, the role of community technology centers could be very important.
21:54:46 John_Mullaney: I agree deea
21:55:14 buthaina: Hi Doug and all..
21:55:17 John_Mullaney: but some of the most successful inner city schools are private and have days that go well beyond the 2:30 dismissal time
21:55:27 deea: The State of Indiana provides SimDesk accounts for every resident. So does the City of Houston. Should we look at some cities/states that are progressing that way?
21:56:17 buthaina: A bit late but just managed my connection here from my room in a hotel in Beirut..
21:56:53 buthaina: lost the sound now
21:57:13 MattC: I don't think we need an entire community that is wired, but at least a school that can provide access.
21:57:13 buthaina: ok now
21:57:27 DougSymington: thanks to all for a wonderful discussion
21:59:38 buthaina: Ok, lookig forward to listening to the audio recording of this session.
22:00:01 MattC: Good night to all and to all a good night.
22:00:42 buthaina: Good nightto all..
