19:49:36 dave-on-air: hello chat room
19:55:17 Cheryl_Oakes: Hello Dave, Jeff, Dave
19:55:29 johnm: Hello Cheryl
19:55:34 johnm: this is john in ohio
19:55:42 Cheryl_Oakes: Hi John, Rentre, Erin
19:55:47 erin: hi cheryl!
19:55:49 Cheryl_Oakes: This is Cheryl in Maine, USA
19:56:04 rentre: Hi everyone
19:58:21 johnm: Jeff. I see a teleconference number
19:58:28 johnm: on education bridges
20:02:23 Harold_Jarche: it lasts 24 hours
20:02:24 johnm: Hello Harold
20:02:29 Harold_Jarche: hi John
20:02:49 johnm: Hi Danny I hope your colleagues know how to join the chat
20:02:58 Trickstar: hi there
20:03:05 Pathoschild: Hey
20:03:58 dave-on-air: greetings
20:04:07 dave-on-air: hi doug
20:05:36 DougSymington: Hi Dave, and everyone
20:05:58 johnm: hello dan
20:06:05 Dan_OShea: Hello!
20:06:34 dave-on-air: test is here!!!
20:06:36 dave-on-air: hi test!
20:06:47 Trickstar: test succesful
20:06:56 test: hi :)
20:08:50 dave-on-air: my notes for today... http://www.davecormier.com/edblog/
20:11:37 ignatj: John, are you there
20:11:43 johnm: yes
20:11:44 johnm: I am here
20:14:21 johnm: it sounds to me as though there is tremendous potential to galvinize a group of teachers nationwide to form a coalition to deal with vaildation and training.
20:14:44 dave-on-air: validation, i think, needs to be built in...
20:14:57 Jim_Gould: The chat conversation is very important, at least for public schools. It is not unusual at all for boards of education to be challenged regarding the content of textbooks.
20:15:22 johnm: Wikis could be a first step toward a national curriculum....how would the States react?
20:15:30 dave-on-air: wow
20:15:53 johnm: any thoughs from experienced teachers or administrators in the room.
20:16:02 Jim_Gould: We absolutely need a national curriculum. The absence of a national curriculum is hurting our country.
20:16:12 johnm: touche Jim
20:16:17 johnm: tell us more
20:16:43 Harold_Jarche: how to you use rigid standards to validate a constantly changing medium?
20:17:09 Dan_OShea: A lot of these concerns don't apply in my context, A A lot of these concerns don't apply in my context, which is higher education.
20:17:18 erin: just because the content changes doesn't mean the standards applied to said context has to.
20:17:26 erin: said content, i mean.
20:17:35 Cheryl_Oakes: We have National Math, Science, English , Geography, Technology standards, and since many states have standards and testing modeled after the national standards, national curriculum would seem to follow.
20:17:44 Jim_Gould: Two groups, the National Council of Math Teachers and the Nat. Sci. Teachers group, have standards that many states have adopted. Ohio is one of them--at least for math. I'm not sure about science because of the intelligent design issue.
20:18:30 johnm: There are also the nonformal science providers such as museums across the country which have superb education outreach offices
20:18:54 Cheryl_Oakes: Since we have Standard College Acceptance Tests, then national curriculum and textbooks, virtual high schools, all seem to be coming together.
20:18:56 johnm: they are ignored by the districts or have a hard time getting into the districts.
20:19:18 dave-on-air: hi sean
20:19:53 johnm: the Cleveland Museum of Art, the Great Lakes Science Center, Urban Ecology Institute in boston and Childrens Museums could all contribute greatly to great textbooks
20:20:24 Harold_Jarche: a stable version and an unstable version - I'd prefer the unstable one ;-)
20:20:39 dave-on-air: this does not surprise me harold
20:20:42 Jim_Gould: Very good point, John. I believe they would have great interest in being more involved.
20:21:02 Harold_Jarche: yes, involve the museums :-)
20:21:13 Cheryl_Oakes: In New England we have the idea of local control, but then I believe Texas for example has to validate certain textbooks, does anyone know?
20:22:24 Dan_OShea: Couldn't you easily set up a "training wiki" fo teachers... using the tool itself?
20:22:32 johnm: Cheryl. Did you see the reference in my blog to the article that shows how the Houston Independent School District is now selling its curriculum to districts that cannot afford to develop and validate their own curriula
20:22:32 Jim_Gould: When I taught in the Columbus, Ohio area, I, along with other teachers, worked directly with COSI--a science and industry museum. We helped create the materials for the teachers and for students for specific exhibits.
20:22:56 Cheryl_Oakes: I'll check it out JohnM, thanks.
20:24:09 johnm: What about the use of cell phones and ipods to use instead of individual computers?
20:24:20 Harold_Jarche: NCLB - no computer left behind?
20:24:39 Cheryl_Oakes: John M, what is the name of your blog?
20:24:39 Jim_Gould: We should use all of the above to enhance student learning.
20:24:51 johnm: Computers in Africa is a nice idea but very very very difficult to make happen
20:25:01 johnm: paricularly in rural areas.
20:25:17 johnm: but more and more people has cell phones
20:25:44 Dan_OShea: Good ideas about cell phones and iPods! Have a look at the following:
20:25:47 Mercedes: There are some very interesting projects to bring technology to the heart of Africa at Standford U.
20:25:48 Dan_OShea: http://www.nmc.org/pdf/2006_Horizon_Report.pdf
20:25:51 Cheryl_Oakes: I think ipods and cell phones will be part of education, but right now our school bans cells phones being turned on in HS, and ipods are not allowed on the busses.
20:26:07 Jim_Gould: My understanding is that there are more cell phones in China than people in the U.S. I recall reading this in Friedman's The World is Flat.
20:26:21 johnm: lol the market could take care if it if the demand was there
20:26:24 erin: John: yes, more people have cell phones, but cell phones require as much of an infrastructure as does internet access.
20:26:54 johnm: I know, but there are other issues with computers that are a challenge.
20:26:54 erin: so you're still cutting out the most rural/undeveloped areas.
20:27:06 erin: Like what?
20:27:56 johnm: check out what these folks are doing w medical information in rural areas. www.healthnet.org
20:27:59 joycevalenza: What about the quality licensed material that exists only in databases?
20:28:13 johnm: and what about paying royalties
20:28:52 joycevalenza: i worry that learners will ignore the material that is not free
20:29:04 johnm: wow....great point
20:29:18 joycevalenza: academic journals
20:29:28 joycevalenza: recently published books, ebooks, etc
20:29:32 dave-on-air: first half hour over... anytakers on the voice chat?
20:29:54 johnm: joyce, Cheryl
20:29:57 johnm: ??
20:29:59 Jim_Gould: Erin has a good point. In Ohio more than thirty years ago the state tried to deal with this by creating what we generally call joint vocational schools. In the 70's these were much more than shop classes. The main idea was to make the JVS the county's center of academic learning. This could still happen; i.e. allocate time and transportation to and from for all rural students whose schools don't have access to information technology.
20:30:17 johnm: Great point
20:30:50 dave-on-air: anyone?
20:30:58 dave-on-air: questions?
20:31:01 dave-on-air: feelings?
20:31:13 johnm: foundations will want more detail.
20:31:23 ignatj: What about electronic paper for use in schools
20:31:28 johnm: would they fund centers for training?
20:31:28 Harold_Jarche: how different is what we are trying to achieve to what wikibooks already offers?
20:31:41 Harold_Jarche: Is the main difference the validation of content?
20:31:54 johnm: I think there is the issue of creating the book then getting it used by teachers.
20:31:58 DougSymington: what role does multimedia have to play, how does/will it change wikis
20:32:06 johnm: great question
20:32:44 Harold_Jarche: focus, focus, focus
20:32:54 Jim_Gould: I believe the difference could be the "personalizing" of content to meet student needs; i.e. aligning available wikibook with content standards.
20:32:54 johnm: how could this group help with developing the plan
20:32:58 johnm: and making it happen?
20:33:26 erin: uh-oh, i lost the audio. anybody else?
20:33:34 johnm: nope I have it
20:33:37 Harold_Jarche: audio OK
20:33:58 Jim_Gould: audio OK
20:34:00 erin: hmmm. okay, i just got it back.
20:34:03 johnm: hi henry
20:34:16 henry_bent: hi!
20:34:44 henry_bent: I dunno what you all are talking about, but Erin asked me to make a point here
20:34:45 Trickstar: i got it back
20:34:57 Trickstar: maybe they have limited lines/channel?
20:35:10 henry_bent: if I am a teacher, I generally have to getapproval from the administration if I am going to use a textbook
20:35:34 henry_bent: and what administration, realistically, is going to approve a texbook that can change drastically at any point?
20:35:49 Cheryl_Oakes: In our schools the school committee approves textbooks.
20:36:15 henry_bent: so my proposal for this is to have wiki-administrator approved "point releases", say every 6mos, so that content across teachers in one school or even across different schools can be standardized
20:36:23 Dan_OShea: That's why I think it might be easier to launch this in the higher education context.
20:36:42 henry_bent: still, what if you had lesson plans that assumed that a textbook was going to say a certain thing
20:36:47 Trickstar: in 6 months so much can happen and develop, it's too long...
20:36:57 henry_bent: and you load it up one day, and it says the same basica concept but in a totally different way
20:37:05 dave-on-air: not to mention that it doesn't let the students get involved
20:37:11 henry_bent: if I were teaching from that textbook I would totally get thrown by that
20:37:24 dave-on-air: i still think two tiered
20:37:27 dave-on-air: a solid core
20:37:29 Cheryl_Oakes: You should be able to assimilate changes in content during a course, your main ideas will remain.
20:37:31 dave-on-air: and changeable shell
20:37:37 Trickstar: henry: you have to examine the textbook thoroughly in the first hand
20:37:41 henry_bent: yes, student input can happen in the same way that it does now - if someone leads a discussion in one way, I can go with that
20:37:59 henry_bent: yeah, but do I have to look over the textbook every day, right before class? That's a lot to expect of someone
20:38:21 Trickstar: lol, somebody fell over the microphone :P
20:38:35 henry_bent: and if a student asks a question I don't know or am not prepared for, I can address it durin the next class period
20:38:41 Cheryl_Oakes: If you print out the book at the beginning of the semester, you would use that version for the whole class wouldn't you?
20:38:46 henry_bent: yes, that's true
20:39:03 henry_bent: but most people seem to think that this will be totally computer-based learning, where the textbook is accessed online
20:39:08 henry_bent: perhaps I am wrong on that point?
20:39:19 joycevalenza: but should we rely on open source only?
20:39:33 Trickstar: well, you _could_ do that, but if you're not comfortable with it, just choose another way :)
20:39:36 Harold_Jarche: Wikis foster the co-creation of knowledge, therefore no single entity (person or organisation) has a monopoly on the truth. This is an empowering, yet subversive, technology.
20:39:39 Dan_OShea: One way the foundation could encourage adoption is by making an annual award for innovative uses of wikitextbooks in education.
20:39:49 henry_bent: of course not, you develop independent lesson plans based on a textbook the same as if you were using a real textbook
20:40:09 Jim_Gould: Something to keep in mind...the content that students learn in school should be the foundation. The challenge is to inspire each student to take what she or he has learned and strive to extend that learning.
20:40:27 Trickstar: harold: no textbook should ever claim to tell _the truth_, it's all just knowledge that has been agreed by society
20:40:34 henry_bent: right
20:40:44 Jim_Gould: This is one way that wikibooks could be used--to extend learning.
20:41:04 Cheryl_Oakes: When students extend their learning we should be teaching them to find at least 3 sources to back up their learning.
20:41:06 henry_bent: but let's say that I am using "Algebra 2005.12.20" and the teacher down the hall is using "Algebra 2006.01.20" and they are significantly different
20:41:17 Dan_OShea: Could we form a committee to work on this offline?
20:41:19 henry_bent: they might say the same thing but present the information in a totally different way
20:41:42 henry_bent: which is why I am encouraging community-approved "point releases"
20:41:43 joycevalenza: students will benefit from learning that knowledge is relative
20:41:56 joycevalenza: not absolute or homomegenized
20:42:01 Cheryl_Oakes: Don't teachers have leeway in their presentations regardless of using the same or different texts?
20:42:08 joycevalenza: absolutely, cheryl
20:42:20 henry_bent: so that teachers all over could be using the same "Algebra 1.0," yet the way they teach from the material can remain absolutely individual
20:42:29 Harold_Jarche: if our evaluation system was based on mastery of process and not on content, we wouldn't have this debate on which version is correct
20:42:31 Trickstar: henry: how wikibooks are used as textbooks in school, should be decided by a school comitee
20:42:40 henry_bent: I would agree with that
20:42:41 Dan_OShea: Why not sponsor on online conference here... so everyone can participate? Plus this is a lowewr cost conference medium.
20:43:10 dave-on-air: yay dan
20:43:12 Jim_Gould: One issue, though, Cheryl, is that teachers are held accountable via "report cards" with how well their students did "on the test." That pressure will make teachers more alike than different in terms of what they are willing to teach.
20:43:24 henry_bent: I'm not saying that I'm against wwikibooks in theory, but I'm trying to be pragmatic about it
20:43:39 erin: Jim: yes, more alike in -what- they teach. But what about -how- they teach?
20:43:51 henry_bent: fully dynamic content is just too volatile for day to day k-12 classroom use
20:43:56 erin: which is what henry's getting at.
20:44:10 Trickstar: henry: sure, i was surprised to hear that schools already use wikimedia as textbooks for school...
20:44:29 Jim_Gould: Excellent point, Erin. Teaching is an art, and no two teachers "teach" the same way...and that is a good thing.
20:44:33 Cheryl_Oakes: Again, I think for us in Maine, we have performance indicators, the teachers all teach it in a way they find works for their students. The outcomes are the same.
20:44:35 Trickstar: this step has to be considered thorougly
20:44:59 erin: Jim: yes! And how does dynamic content change the way teachers teach?
20:45:15 erin: what effect does it have, not on the content, but on the delivery?
20:45:23 henry_bent: I just want to reiterate: if I make lesson plans assuming that a textbook will say one thing, and I come in one day andt has the same facts presented in a diferent way, I would be pretty thrown
20:45:24 Dan_OShea: All right!!! Congratulations on getting the conference here!!!
20:45:44 erin: Because the delivery is just as important as what's delivered.
20:45:46 joycevalenza: i worry that there is a negative association with what might be called the wiki "brand"
20:45:54 erin: joyce: howso?
20:46:04 Trickstar: henry: as i've seen it, the teachers all present the material in their very own way anyway :P
20:46:10 johnm: branding is an important issue and the subject of a long discussion
20:46:22 Trickstar: i've never seen a single teacher, who used a textbook from first to last page
20:46:26 henry_bent: and I think having approved releases at a certain point might allay fears about constant volatility, which is IMHO the negative wiki stereotype
20:46:27 johnm: I think you are absolutely correct joyce
20:46:32 erin: yes, teachers present material in their own way, but how can they do that if they don't know what the content will be from day to day?
20:46:48 joycevalenza: hmmm, i need to work these thoughts need to worked on but I haven't completely gelled them
20:46:59 joycevalenza: i am suspicious
20:47:07 johnm: of?
20:47:10 Trickstar: well, they should now what the _content_ is, a textbook is only about how to present it, right?
20:47:13 DougSymington: Teachers would need to work from a "canned" version for classes
20:47:13 erin: teachers don't use a textbook from cover to cover, but that's because they can look at the book and decide ahead of time what does and doesn't work with their delivery.
20:47:14 Jim_Gould: Erin, your question is very "high level." Teachers and students are alike in that both are constantly learning. New learning and experiences creates interest in new topics--a desire to discover. When this happens, teachers grow--and students grow. Where would we be without teachers? Imagine a world without teachers.
20:47:14 joycevalenza: not sure
20:47:36 joycevalenza: would love ncte, nctm or grass roots teachers to lead these efforts
20:47:50 joycevalenza: or librarians (of course)
20:47:54 johnm: The danger could be wiki becoming a brand like Houghton Mifflin
20:47:57 dave-on-air: librarians?
20:48:01 dave-on-air: where are they?
20:48:03 joycevalenza: :-)
20:48:04 henry_bent: if I could dynamically alter the entire structure of a lesson at any given moment, I would be a great teacher, and that should be strived for, but realistically can we expect that of everyone?
20:48:10 joycevalenza: we're listening
20:48:16 erin: John: Agreed. I am in favor of wikibooks, not WikiBooks.
20:48:21 Jim_Gould: Media specialists play a very important role in every student's education.
20:48:21 Trickstar: i liked the teachers most, who were also willing to learn themselves :)
20:48:31 joycevalenza: because other tools should be added, linked to
20:49:37 dave-on-air: hi again sean
20:49:43 sean: hello
20:49:55 dave-on-air: is this sean of isean or a new sean?
20:50:00 sean: iSean
20:50:18 Jim_Gould: Wikibooks are an excellent example of the future--collaboration between "knowledge learners," which includes both teachers and learners. And, by the way, If a publishers wanted to play, why not?
20:50:28 dave-on-air: this is a very interesting post http://atticmooses.com/blog/2006/01/31/54/#comments
20:51:03 sean: thanks, but it's your blog entry from 1.25 that inspired me to post that.
20:51:04 henry_bent: my worry about a real publisher getting involved is that you have gone back to the regular textbook format - I have to buy them whenever I want a new one, rather than printing it out and using a certain version
20:51:35 sean: why not use lulu.com for publishing purposes to keep costs down?
20:51:47 sean: if you really need to print, that is.
20:52:14 henry_bent: sure, you could have a static textbook version on computers
20:52:25 Jim_Gould: Henry, maybe the kind of publisher I'm thinking about is not currently "real"; I'm thinking of encouraging entrepreneurship--or however it's spelled.
20:52:43 henry_bent: but that assumes that your school has the resources for, say, an Algebra class to all be sitting in front of computers all the time
20:53:01 Jim_Gould: By the way, by "publisher," I wasn't thinking of hard copy.
20:53:07 dave-on-air: not to mention that you need a certain flexibility that you have with tablets
20:53:11 dave-on-air: but not desktops
20:53:13 henry_bent: maybe that's feasible now, it's been a few years since I've been in K-12 schools
20:53:24 erin: jim - what were you thinking of?
20:53:56 sean: i have been thinking about teachers who want to have something static . . . perhaps the wiki could be downloaded by individual teachers to install on a school server so theycould have a static textbook wiki and just update it each semester or each year???
20:54:05 Harold_Jarche: free knowledge - I like that :-)
20:54:10 henry_bent: right, that's exactly my point!
20:54:15 joycevalenza: i worry also about the level of plagiarism in wikipedia
20:54:18 Trickstar: harold: that's what it's all about :D
20:54:18 Dan_OShea: Does anyone know if Danny Wool currently lives in St. Petersburg, Florida? That's next door to me!
20:54:27 johnm: joyce PLEASE join in the chat
20:54:31 Trickstar: OpenSource is yesterday, OpenKnowledge is the future
20:54:32 erin: Sean - what's the difference between that and a textbook?
20:54:50 erin: I think it's important to have roadmarkers, but anytime you make the content actually static...
20:54:54 Harold_Jarche: yeah wikimedia !!!
20:54:56 Jim_Gould: Erin, what I'm trying to get at is that we should constantly be thinking outside of the box rather than trying to make new ideas comform with old molds. We should "in-source" between teachers and students with respect to, say, math problem solving.
20:55:01 sean: well, for one it could be updated often by the individual instructor and her students
20:55:02 erin: that's defeating the purpose of the wiki.
20:55:25 dave-on-air: we're looking for our next victim
20:55:31 henry_bent: but Erin, that was what I was saying about approved point releases - any local changes can always be contributed back to the wiki, and then you download the new approved revision at the beginning of the next semester
20:55:36 erin: yes, sean, but how is that helping the general wiki-using community? if lots of schools update several different copies of the original, how does the original ever progress?
20:55:37 dave-on-air: skype please.
20:56:09 henry_bent: how does a wiki progress when you have revert wars or edit wars, or even disagreements on article content?
20:56:19 Jeff_Lebow: or better yet, join teleconference....Jeff's computer is groaning
20:56:23 erin: jim - agreed.
20:56:24 Trickstar: henry: it does, just look at wikipedia :)
20:56:36 henry_bent: trickstar, that's my point - it still does progress
20:56:56 erin: because that's spurring a discussion about the content as it's being created.
20:56:58 Trickstar: the more you discuss about a topic, the more you learn about it
20:57:02 Cheryl_Oakes: Hi Graham
20:57:06 erin: rather than creating different contents and arguing about which is better.
20:57:22 GrahamStanley: Hi Cheryl
20:57:33 erin: the time to discuss content is as it's being created, not afterwards.
20:57:34 henry_bent: and if I really disagreed with the direction a wikibook took,i could just use my local revision with my local updates
20:57:36 sean: erin, the general wiki could still be updated often. if a teacher has a classroom copy, that doesn't mean that they can't contribute back to the general wiki. perhaps the teacher uses her best stuff to contribute back as part of the deal when they get a version. and, i am not married to this idea, but i also know that my ideal textbook is going to look much different than one of the other instructors who teaches the same classes i teach.
20:58:44 erin: again, let's think pragmatically about this. how much time do teachers have to constantly be updating the general wiki during the school year?
20:58:46 joycevalenza: i still see this as a place to share the best of our resources
20:59:19 Jim_Gould: Erin makes a good point...IEP meetings, staff meetings, returning parent calls, assemblies, etc.
20:59:29 Harold_Jarche: not everyone has to be updating, but all can benefit
20:59:34 erin: most of the updating will happen in bunches at certain points of the year.
20:59:34 sean: erin, i get the feeling that this discussion is more geared towards k-12. is this correct? if so, i have been thinking from the higher ed perspective, fwiw.
20:59:42 DougSymington: I think that teachers need to challenge students to play a more active role in development of "new" knowledge/updates
20:59:43 joycevalenza: no such thing as a neutral text
20:59:51 erin: sean - yes, i'm thinking k-12, but the same is true of higher ed.
20:59:54 henry_bent: and I can do a mass update, perhaps, at the end of a semester or over a break
21:00:04 sean: when i was in k-12, i didn't get to choose my textbook. therefore, i couldn't have selected a wiki textbook. that's a disad, imho.
21:00:07 erin: doug - yes! and you can't do that when you make content static.
21:00:19 Harold_Jarche: yes - be bold
21:00:20 erin: yes but mass updates stifle discussion.
21:00:26 DougSymington: Erin:sure you can, to a degree
21:00:29 joycevalenza: yes, erin.
21:00:37 joycevalenza: truly the illusion of neutral bugs me
21:00:45 erin: to what degree, doug?
21:00:50 Jim_Gould: Another FWIW...anyone checked the prices of textbooks these days? Especially college texts?
21:00:59 DougSymington: as in changes to "that semester's" text w
21:01:11 DougSymington: by a teacher and class
21:01:13 henry_bent: m college science textbooks were over $100 each
21:01:31 Harold_Jarche: maybe not just NPOV but multiple poits of view?
21:01:34 joycevalenza: history is about perspectice
21:01:37 joycevalenza: perspective
21:01:39 Jim_Gould: Mine were a lot less.
21:01:44 joycevalenza: yes, harold
21:01:54 DougSymington: maybe media files have been developed by students of experiments related to coursework for a given semester
21:01:59 erin: but how does "that semester's" text benefit the community and move the project forward? which is part of the point of this?
21:02:05 johnm: The Cleveland Plain Dealer had a great article on expense of textbooks today
21:02:06 Harold_Jarche: H2O ?
21:02:12 johnm: Washington Post January 23.....
21:02:14 DougSymington: that might "add value" and be considered for eventual inclusion
21:02:33 erin: and who decides what is included?
21:02:48 henry_bent: if I make a mass edit, the community could decide that they wanted to revert it, or it could start a big discussion about what to change and how to change it
21:03:04 erin: anytime you add layers of bureaucracy to this you get closer to what makes regular textbooks so unusable.
21:03:15 DougSymington: that comes back to the "periodic" edit--I'd say no more than once a semester; and that becomes the new "starting point" for subsequent learning
21:03:18 henry_bent: and if it's at the end of a semester, ideally there would be more people with free time to spend on further edit and discussion
21:03:39 erin: they may have more time, but will they have the energy/motivation, haven just come off a long school year / semester?
21:03:45 dave-on-air: oh. hi brian.
21:03:47 Jim_Gould: I would include "findings"; how different students reconciled differrences for themselves in trying to understand new ideas by comparing them with what they already know.
21:03:50 erin: having, not haven.
21:03:58 dave-on-air: having a haven
21:04:01 erin: lol
21:04:18 henry_bent: perfect fodder for a talk page, perhaps
21:05:48 erin: i'm not a fan of the "periodic edit" - i think you need to take snapshots of the content, but you can't lock it at those snapshots.
21:06:09 henry_bent: oh, I'm not saying that you lock a page in the meantime
21:06:31 henry_bent: you just have two versions of a textbook - Algebra with day to day changes, and "Algebra 1.5"
21:06:35 erin: but effectively that's what happens if you move the content onto a local server.
21:06:40 sean: i don't like periodic edits either, but i also think some teachers want something more static once they start making plans around the content. and, other teachers can roll with the punches of change.
21:06:46 erin: who's using/editing the original, then?
21:07:00 henry_bent: in 6 months, you then have "Algebra 2.0" which incorporates changes made to the dynamic wikibook
21:07:22 henry_bent: hmm, let's shift - ideally I woud contribute class changes back perhaps once a week
21:07:34 henry_bent: I think every day is unrealistic to expect
21:07:42 Harold_Jarche: that's the main point - knowledge is not stable - and seems to be the main stumbling block here
21:07:59 sean: henry, that's my thinking as well. have something that a teacher can count on while development continues on an identical wiki that is being built for the next version. any teacher can use the wiki being developed or they can resort to the static version.
21:07:59 erin: ideally. but then what happens when your dogs get sick, and you have to run a club, and it's getting close to exam time and you have to run study sessions...
21:08:18 henry_bent: and the material you asked students to review has changed!
21:08:23 Jim_Gould: Great points being made in chat now about the growth of knowledge. Very profound...and true.
21:08:57 erin: it goes both ways, henry, agreed.
21:09:03 erin: oh, we're not screaming.
21:09:03 Harold_Jarche: a sophisticated, but subversive, tool
21:09:06 DougSymington: we also need to recognize that teacher isn't the "gatekeeper" in this model. Learners need to be responsible for learning
21:09:19 Harold_Jarche: not so loud Dave ;-)
21:09:20 sean: did someone hear something? ;)
21:09:25 henry_bent: in higher ed I think that's realistic, Doug
21:09:35 dave-on-air: k
21:09:37 henry_bent: but in third grade I'm not sure you could expect that of an entire class
21:09:44 DougSymington: it is in K-12 as well, question of degree I think
21:09:45 Jim_Gould: It's a subset of the periodic table.
21:10:34 dave-on-air: lol... i like that sean guy
21:10:52 Harold_Jarche: thoughts on curriculum - http://www.experiencedesignernetwork.com/archives/000646.html
21:11:06 Jim_Gould: We're hearing good stuff...
21:11:34 erin: but we're not just talking about additions in the curriculum, but edits of exisiting curriculum.
21:11:58 henry_bent: ok, my revision concept would not apply if a wikibook had not changed significantly
21:12:26 henry_bent: if no one made any real contributions since Algebra 1.5, there would be no need for an Algebra 1.6 or 2.0
21:13:18 joycevalenza: can't there also be a kinda biblical scholarly commentary that accompanies some material, like torah work?
21:13:29 Jim_Gould: Erin makes an excellent point. The existing curriculum should comprise knowledge that does not change, such as the formula for the volumbe of a sphere...which is something like 4/3's Pi R squared.
21:13:56 sean: right, and how much are "kids" going to be able to contribute to that kind of knowledge?
21:14:14 joycevalenza: but we're so much more about concepts than facts
21:14:16 joycevalenza: right
21:14:21 erin: maybe not much. what they can contribute are other ways of wrapping one's head around said knowledge.
21:14:25 DougSymington: sean--by making an audio or video about an experiment, for instance
21:14:34 erin: other ways of saying the same thing. kids explaining to kids.
21:14:47 Dan_OShea: I wish I had this resource when I was a student...
21:14:51 sean: if the textbook is going to be worth reading from a kids', then it's going to have to have a nice narrative as well.
21:16:07 sean: Doug, that's my vision . . . i teach teachers and future teachers, and i'd love to have video of teachers modeling certain teaching strategies and stuff like that. that's what i'd need in a wiki textbook at least as a supplement. i do that kind of thing now, but it would be nice to have it all together somewhere.
21:16:31 henry_bent: it might be more identifiable, but is it going to encourage good grammar? I think this is why wikibooks would work best as a mixture of teachers and students
21:16:41 Dan_OShea: Wikis should be free... but someone could come across and package this as a value add, couldn't they?
21:16:51 Trickstar: have you ever bought a large encyclopedia? most surely you find content-additions and corrections enclosed on lose pages, as content has changed since printing, and actually you get a subscription on those pages, so that you'll always now what's wrong/changed
21:17:30 Harold_Jarche: Here's a static, multimedia resource, which is what fixed-in-time wikibook would be:
21:17:32 Harold_Jarche: http://www.intermath-uga.gatech.edu/dictnary/descript.asp?termID=52
21:17:48 Harold_Jarche: no co-creation of knowledge :-(
21:17:59 joycevalenza: i would love to have sidebars in this thing. like contributions from experts and scholars.
21:18:18 henry_bent: Harold, that's a nice site, but I would argue that it's an encyclopedia rather than a usable textbook
21:18:39 Harold_Jarche: I agree, but that's what some are arguing for
21:18:40 Dan_OShea: NEXT ACTION STEPS??????
21:19:02 dave-on-air: http://davecormier.com/edblog
21:19:03 johnm: we need to form a group to advise them on how to proceed
21:19:14 dave-on-air: my thoughts
21:19:20 henry_bent: reference books are a nice addition to textbooks and/or regular lessons, but I wouldn't want to teach out of the britannica
21:19:36 erin: that's why they're called reference books.
21:20:15 Harold_Jarche: how does a texbook differ from a reference book - is it the lessons or guides?
21:20:45 Harold_Jarche: kind of like the life of a blogger
21:21:12 sean: it has interconnected topics and lessons and narrative, etc. a reference book is more like wikipedia where each topic is stand-alone.
21:21:19 erin: agreed.
21:21:56 henry_bent: reading a textbook to a class is boring but informative - reading an encyclopedia article to a class is very informative but VERY dry and boring
21:22:13 Harold_Jarche: wouldn't a texbook be better as hypertext then?
21:22:20 Trickstar: clicking through wikipedia, checking all the stuff you're interested in is not boring :)
21:22:35 henry_bent: a wikibook with links to wikipedia articles, for example, would be wonderful
21:22:46 sean: i am not convinced a wiki is the best starting point for the ideal online textbook, but i am early in exploring wiki tools
21:22:48 joycevalenza: i'd like to see a tool that includes more than textbook material
21:22:59 Harold_Jarche: another piece of the puzzle, henry
21:23:02 henry_bent: but you risk losing a class period to side discusions or side investigation by students, who might stop paying attention to the teacher
21:23:03 joycevalenza: most of my colleagues do not rely on their texts
21:23:06 joycevalenza: they need more
21:23:29 Harold_Jarche: doesn't deeper learning happen during the side discussions?
21:23:40 erin: henry: is it really a loss if the students are learning?
21:23:53 henry_bent: yes, it does, but I wouldn't want it to happen at the expense of regular class progression
21:24:07 erin: ah, but that's an awfully teacher-centered statement.
21:24:22 henry_bent: ideally students should be motivated enough to learn on their own time, which is also a teacher-centered statement
21:24:24 sean: yeah, but in K-12 the NCLB (in the USA) rules the roost. side learning is meaningful, no doubt, but if it's not directed at NCLB then many schools aren't going to be as interested in this benefit.
21:24:47 Harold_Jarche: homework = add to our wiki (ok, dave)
21:25:03 Harold_Jarche: THANKS Danny
21:25:09 erin: Thanks, Danny!
21:25:15 sean: thanks Danny
21:25:15 johnm: Thanks so much Danny
21:25:18 DougSymington: Danny, yes thanks for a great show
21:25:23 johnm: Great show
21:25:25 henry_bent: thanks everyone!
21:25:32 GrahamStanley: thanks everyone - I look forward to listening to what I missed
21:25:35 dave-on-air: open lines... i'm heading out kiddos
21:25:36 henry_bent: including Danny :-)
21:25:39 dave-on-air: cheers all...
21:25:45 sean: cheers!
21:25:49 erin: night dave!
21:25:54 DougSymington: thanks to all for a great discussion in chat too
21:26:36 dave-on-air: GREAT CHATROOM!
21:26:43 Danny: thanks everypone!
21:26:47 dave-on-air: see you all next week... i hope.
21:26:51 erin: yeah, definitely. have a good night y'all!
21:26:57 sean: sounds great!
21:27:00 Danny: i really enjoyed being here
21:27:17 henry_bent: yeah, it's been lots of fun everyone
21:27:30 sean: i am happy to have found others who are thinking along the same lines, but with very different perspectives, etc.
21:27:39 Harold_Jarche: great job, WB team
21:27:48 sean: cheers all!
21:27:49 joycevalenza: night all!
21:27:54 Danny: good nite all
21:27:55 erin: sean: that's what this is all about. good night!
21:27:56 GrahamStanley: good night
21:27:59 Danny: i hope to be back next week
21:29:14 Trickstar: good fight, good night
21:29:18 Jeff_Lebow: Thanks all